Modern Energy Management

How IoT Solutions Are Making Connected Facilities a Reality

March 25, 2020 Nate Nilles & Amber Artrip Season 1 Episode 16
Modern Energy Management
How IoT Solutions Are Making Connected Facilities a Reality
Modern Energy Management
How IoT Solutions Are Making Connected Facilities a Reality
Mar 25, 2020 Season 1 Episode 16
Nate Nilles & Amber Artrip

Tune in to this week's episode of Modern Energy Management as John Kavulich, Vice President of IoT Solution Sales at Acuity Brands, shares how digital lighting networks are making connected facilities a reality for retail, aviation, healthcare, and other industries. We explore IoT use cases that help building owners digitize their facilities, improve energy efficiency, and understand what's happening in their buildings by capturing data from lighting networks and beacon technology.

If you like our show, please leave us a review in the Apple Podcast App or share our show with a friend in the industry. 

Questions, Comments, or if you'd like to guest star on the show please email

Show Notes Transcript

Tune in to this week's episode of Modern Energy Management as John Kavulich, Vice President of IoT Solution Sales at Acuity Brands, shares how digital lighting networks are making connected facilities a reality for retail, aviation, healthcare, and other industries. We explore IoT use cases that help building owners digitize their facilities, improve energy efficiency, and understand what's happening in their buildings by capturing data from lighting networks and beacon technology.

If you like our show, please leave us a review in the Apple Podcast App or share our show with a friend in the industry. 

Questions, Comments, or if you'd like to guest star on the show please email

spk_1:   0:00
Hello, everyone, and thank you for tuning in to the modern energy management podcast. This is the podcast platform for energy sustainability and facilities leaders to share their stories of modern energy management at their organizations. Mining is Amber our trip, and I'm the producer and co host of the show. And, as always, it's a pleasure to do this show every week with my co host, Nate Nellis.

spk_2:   0:24
Thank you, Amber. I am excited to be back in Always fun when you have technology. That is super interesting. So that should be a good one.

spk_1:   0:33
Today's show we have our friend John Cavallo, who is the vice president of I O T Solutions at Acuity Brands. Welcome to the show, John.

spk_0:   0:43
Ah, thank you, Amber Nate, for having me today.

spk_1:   0:47
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the industry and what you're doing now? Acuity brands with Atria ce?

spk_0:   0:55
Sure. Thanks for that introduction. So I've been with acuity brands for about four plus years, and what excited me about coming into acuity brands was my background in wireless and specifically wireless location and connective iti as it relates to cellphones, modern day WiFi and other activities that might be geospatial in nature. And it brought me to acuity because acuity was transforming themselves from strictly a lighting company into a technology company. And that technology was built around adding wireless and integrating sensors, which will get into a little bit later into the lighting infrastructure that they were selling in putting through their road maps. So excited to be here for those reasons and about the connectivity that we're adding into building spaces and businesses for people to take advantage

spk_2:   1:53
of. Hey, John, when you look at the landscape, you know, those kind of things drew you with your background to acuity, but is

spk_1:   2:02
acute be

spk_2:   2:02
different. You look, there's a lot of lighting companies out there. A lot of people that were writing the led wave, but is is acute. Be doing things in an innovative were different in, and that one of the drivers that got should make

spk_0:   2:17
Okay, well, that's ah, that's point on me because acuity is really focused. And when we think about a tree s, which is the products and service is that we're focused on from a technology perspective, a tresses really connecting buildings, people, businesses and things that are important to meeting business objectives, whether those air, top line or bottom line different from other companies, that may be either in the connected space building management, space facilities, space or even the pure lighting space acuity brands brings to the table full stack of the solution. What do I mean by full stack? What I mean is that not only do we provide lighting that's world class and provides that only return on investment through led savings for facility and energy managers and businesses like but we also provide building management systems and software products, and service is around. The lighting in the building management software and service is is, well, a CZ, the data platforms and the security needed to provide sensory networks as well as data ingestion as well as geospatial analytics. So all of those items, together from one place at one time give us an advantage in the marketplace and also makes it easy and simple for customers to understand. Well, we take on oh, coffee technology and complications that come with inter connecting the lighting network with building management systems and making sure we get through the security hoops. We take all that into account, make it simple for customers to realize the savings and the opportunities that come with connecting a building with with the beauty brands in the a. Tristan Knowledge.

spk_2:   4:06
Yeah, it definitely sounds like we continue to hear things on this podcast around customer experience and being able to deliver all those things kind of vertically integrated with you will or interoperable. Sounds like a a pretty, pretty exciting place to be that to sell sell product. So I know Amber and I were talking about this before the podcasts, and, you know, everywhere we look, I ot seems to be the hot topic, and you mention it early on as well. And and I know for a lot of enterprise customers for buyers, this can be really paralyzing. They don't know where to start. Questions to ask. I'm not even sure in some cases what department is being tasked with with that initiative, and it really seems to us that intelligent lighting, where the lighting fixtures seemed to be the natural fit for these i o T sensors, especially riding the wave of all of the retrofits that air going out there. So when we think about that, how are you helping acuity kind of shift their mindset of acuity, being just delighting partner to a true technology provider?

spk_0:   5:20
Yeah, that's Ah, that's a very good question. And and when that comes up often, especially around where two people start our how did they get involved with making their building more of a smart building? Um, Anna connected building. So the lighting itself right? Especially with led retrofits that are happening. The lighting itself provides a very quick payback and a return on investment with the technology platforms that a cuties building into the lighting itself. We're allowing the building to take advantage off, not only turn on investment from the energy savings that's natural with led, but also an opportunity to integrate digital sensors, which give a level off connectivity. And so the equation, if you will start with, in most cases, the facility, it's an energy management team looking to take advantage of led retrofits and the savings we then migrate to the opportunities. Whether it's taken advantage of today or sometime in the future is a future proof solution where we have integrated digital technology into each and every light, and what I mean by that is that we have sensors that are integrated with each light fixture. The sensors themselves are on when the light fixture itself is on, so it creates an environment where, between the four walls now you have an opportunity to take advantage off the connective ity of fighting for things like dimming through a wireless portal and or things like connected facilities where you can take the emergency lighting that you might have in the building and using the technology that has integrated into the lights, be able to provide a link, if you will, for automated reporting in compliance that can go back to a corporate or a central location. And then you have record. If you let your documented record around what the facility and the compliance that you might have connected life safety environment Beyond that, especially as I think of security brands where we have over 500 million square feet of a tree, it's fighting installed in North America. You could imagine that especially larger campuses, transportation hubs or retailers that have multiple buildings and large spaces would want to know the equality. You know, just a simple, as are my lights on or off. And what is the environment look like from a lighting perspective? And because we have the technology, we're able to do that. So starting with facilities and energy, we quickly movinto an opportunity to look at the operation side of the house for cost savings. Whether that's tuning down lights or integrating all the lights into a building management system comes into play. You can take advantage of that from a cost perspective on the enhancement or the top line perspective. You can also look at the ways that you can enhance your operation by making your employees more efficient and or making your guests in a commercial retail environment or the transportation hub. For example, make your guests have a better or more personalized experience. Give them an opportunity to not only find products and do so in an illustrative way, using a map heavy digital technology from the lighting, but also help them get through their list up and get through their journey as well as help them give them or give them reminders of maybe products that they are complimentary toe what they're purchasing from their last or maybe in the areas that they might be assistance store. Sorry for being a little bit, uh, thorough there, but you give me an opportunity to speak, and I'll take it.

spk_2:   9:15
No, no, I love it. And, ah, you know, the use cases when I hear those the really again interesting piece to us is is they seemed limitless, right? I think of big waves throughout the years. And one of the ones that I lived through was Mark Rid, right? But it really didn't have, um, it was a buzzword. It got a lot of investment in different areas, but it just didn't have this tangible teeth and use cases that really drove it forward. I o t. On the other hand, as you started going into has so many, uh, different use cases for a variety of stakeholders that air really tangible and move the business. I mean, you two patched on security and increased efficiency. Whether that's opted by spaces or operations or service feedback, energy savings, there's the user experience with navigation way finding collaboration. You name it right. It's just endless use cases. So I would imagine getting folks to prioritize the most important ones is a little bit. Ah, of a challenge to

spk_0:   10:21
Yeah, that's a good point. I think the way I like to sum it up is that historically, lighting has been looked upon even on the balance sheet of a large corporation as an expense. And because we've now, if you will digitized and put connectivity into the lighting with additional sensors all while taking advantage of it led return on investment savings We've taken lighting from not just in expense item, but a way to improve operations away to automate your facility. And I have to tell you even away, just understand what's going on four walls in your space just because you've added a digital place here. So all of a sudden it becomes not so important just to the accountants off yeah, or the corporation or the ownership. But it becomes important for the marketers. It becomes important for the guest experience people. It becomes important for human resource is who's looking to optimize and make efficient use of the resource is in a manner which makes sense. And all this happens because you've lit up the ceiling with digital sensors and are able to answer the fundamental question of what's happening in that space.

spk_2:   11:33
So, John, there are a ton of sensors out there. You mentioned quite a few of them that Titus certain use cases, Um, and you have some of your own vertically integrated. But when you think about all the point based solutions out there, new sensors coming out seems like monthly, Uh, whether it's for occupancy way finding assets, et cetera. Uh, are you tying in those third body sensors? Or is that the plan into do the backbone of the network? Do you created?

spk_0:   12:04
Sure, because we have a digital century network that becomes created and owned and operated in the space of the owner. Um, not only do they control that network, but they also control the devices or, in your case, the third party sensors that may speak to it. We have quite a bit of momentum in the area. If you think about sensors that maybe tie two freezers on being a little retail specific here, could be ovens could be doors. In addition, it could be consumer product groups, people that want to understand, did my product make it into the store and is it set, perhaps in the correct place, I think of, Ah, the Super Bowl in this regard. Super Bowl. Whenever I walk into one of my main chains, Thio, pick up my chips and debt. There's usually a Coke, Pepsi or perhaps a a an adult beverage display with a with a cardboard goalpost. That usually hits me as soon as I come through the door. The space and the requirement in the campaign bat is a contract that, if you will, between that consumer product group and the retailer, is important because its needs to be set for a certain period of time. It needs to have product, and it also needs to be in the correct place. So that's an opportunity where if we have smart cardboard or smart sensors within those types of displays, that would be an opportunity, along with ovens and freezers and other things to take advantage of the third party censor environment. And because I already mentioned we have the full stack, which is one of the separators, I believe that we bring to the table with our Atria solutions. We have the ability to help integrate and help if you will quantify and certify 1/3 party device to make sure it would work with the infrastructure that we've put in place. Um, to be to be supportive of whatever the business objective is at that time,

spk_2:   14:21
that beast makes sense. You're You're kind of taken away the pain of figuring that out, but probably more for the enterprise customers the risk of the security side because a lot of these companies that are coming out of the sensors are very small. That may be a start up, but you're mitigating risk for the big enterprise user. That's great.

spk_0:   14:40
Yeah, and as a matter of fact, because that is MM, Jindraike the sensors and if you will, the hardware it's being put in is integrated into the lighting itself. So it's not too often that, uh, that you'll kick a sensor on a place or or throw something that breaks a light fixture, which would include the sensors so they're in a good spot. There's also power in the ceiling. So but ice around hours on sensors on, um, you have, if you will, kind of a ubiquitous network of where people are going to spend time or things are gonna be arresting in place or needed he needed to be placed, and they'll have lights. So it's a kind of a win win.

spk_1:   15:28
Absolutely So John switching gears a little bit. I'd love to learn more about what projects you're excited about that are happening now and where your C moment and whether that's use cases or vertical specific.

spk_0:   15:42
Sure, so it a high umbrella, um, where we see a lot of momentum is really back to the fundamental question. What's happening in my space? My space could be a store. My space could be a distribution center. My space could be transportation, huh? My space could be a health care facility by space. Could be a campus. I think you get the idea and fundamentally entering that. Those questions matters because the data that gets generated when you have the lighting and the lighting is interacting, if you would, with sensors and devices and even associate or guest cellphones or other spark devices, you get a sense, and you have an opportunity to take that data and analyze it in a geo spatial manner without using all the big words. What that really means is people's journeys or devices, journeys and their characteristics, or even just cleanly said the health of those devices can all be digitized, captured and then split of number of different ways to meet certain objectives. You can identify, for example, were gas or where associate spend their time, not the fact that we just counted how many people came into the store. But perhaps, maybe, what did they do when they were in there for 20 minutes along to people stay on average? Did they spend most of their time in grocery or the electronics department? Those are things that matter. When I think of other hubs like transportation, for example, it's not too far fetched for weekend. We can imagine being in a large international airport, whether that's the U. S. Or Canada or wherever you may be at the time. Um, getting through and being efficient is important. It's not only important for the guest, it's important for the airlines. It's important for the security people. It's important for the operations off your port, um, so that they understand how long people are taking to get from point A to point B. And people aren't stressing. People are adding complexity, but we're adding simplicity, toe people's lives through the opportunity to look and analyze what's happening within that space. Another prime example would be if you think of grocery and you think of people in their shopping carts, right. Where did those cards migrate to rid of a spend most of their time. Are people making decisions or are they just picking things off the shelf? Is they go by right, which might be more of a commodity by, say, toothpaste? Or are they really taking their time shampoo and getting something that's important? Those air important insights not only for customers or for the brands, but it also can help the guests because they give them a personalized experience. So to answer the question around the verticals retail, of course, is something that's near and dear to my heart is I spent the last couple of years of security focused on retail with respect to waitress and connecting the buildings together, but the transportation hubs and health care. And again, that's to make people's lives and the operations run smoother those air where we see a lot of

spk_2:   19:10
so John you mentioned, and I'm going to see if I'm taking away this too. But you mentioned the end user, right? The owner, um, could be, uh, retail. Could be health care, et cetera. You talked about the occupant and you spoke about, You know, vendors could be a product vendor, if you will. When you think of those three entities all which could glean insights from the sensors from the analytics that you're bringing them is there one of the three that is kind of driving the early conversations more than another?

spk_0:   19:43
Uh, yeah, I would say that the ownership just understanding at a very high level or an enterprise level understanding what is happening in their space, just where people are, things are and where people are, things are moving. Probably drives that conversation as soon as you're done with Hey, I should probably move the led because it's important to return on us, help the environment and also add great lighting to my to my space. Once you get beyond that, do believe that it's driven a lot by just a simple question of what is happening in my space. It's easy to boil the ocean inmate. I have a lot of conversations with people that it wonder which end to start at. If your business is very guest focused. It's important to start with the guest because that is the voice of your customers and what's happening when they enter your space? Can they get through quickly? They find things that they need. Do they need more assistance? What are the top items that they spend their time in front of versus time? They don't spend on A. They just quickly purchase those air important items. But if you're more of a you know, you know, warehouse, a transportation or other environment, you do want us focus on the operations. And funny, is it ISS? You can start at one end calling guest experience or the other end. Call it operations and they magically converge in Almost every conversation seemed tohave, so there are a lot of use cases and I want it. I would encourage people to focus on for the first few and just maybe even answer what's going on in my building and start from there to decide which of the items will be most important to get insights and information,

spk_1:   21:38
right? So you you mentioned the health care industry. Can you explain to us how this sort of asset tracking conserve the health care industry and how it can also serve transportation.

spk_0:   21:50
Sure, so I'll start with the look. The ladder transportation. Imagine if you think of tracking or looking after things in an airport. Um, I come we think about wheelchairs and the assistance, if you will, to move people from one gate to another or from the baggage area, or even drop off area to through security to their gate. The wheelchairs and the wheelchair assistance are important in that environment because they need to be on time. You need to understand which ones to dispatch. It's almost a small mini fleet management system. In addition to that, you can take advantage, and transportation with some of the public facilities they're fired, for example, is under. Gloria says it sounds or unglamorous as it sounds, the paper towel rack in the restroom. If I'm out of paper towels and, of course, in today's day and age for everyone's washing their hands thoroughly, um, having that is a facility that could be able to report itself and say in query er, notify somebody that there's going to be a dispenser that needs to be replaced to replenish. That's an important piece it is, is easy. As simple as that sounds, if that goes for a long time in Chicago O'Hare, safe for a couple of three hours on a Monday morning without replenishment, not only our people disappointed in that experience, but the operation itself. You could have other issues where water is now splattered on the floor because people are shaking their hands off, you could create an unsafe environment. So that's just one implication. When I think about transportation from the health care perspective, it's really getting people through. What I'll call sometimes are confusing campuses or building layouts. Everyone adds a wing to the hospital or, you know, makes the healthcare office facility might be expanding. It's important that people, even if they're somewhat knowledgeable because they go on a regular aces, it's important for them to get in and out efficiently, but also the fine, where and when and where they need to be. If someone's not feeling well or even if it's a routine check up or visit, they want to be able to come in and want to be able to have personalized experience where they can find their way unequivocally without a lot off complex city or undue stress added to what might be happening. Imagine if I will. My Children, you know, falls and hits his or her chin on the side of the table, and I need to bring them in for stitches. It be important that I took them into probably the correct entrance, but if I didn't, I'd want to know how to get near the correct entrance or a reception area so that I could take care of that without a lot of questions and answers. These are the types of things I think, in health care. It could help the guest, but also the operation flow. When I start to think of important imaging equipment or important equipment or gurneys that are going, if you will unused or even in worst case, having trouble finding those those assets are very important. They're very expensive and making proper having full utilization of those. It's not only good for the business, but it's also infinite Patience.

spk_2:   25:20
Yeah, I would say it's not often that you really hear about a true when win in those situations, but it really is right. When you look through these use cases, there's just a CZ. Many user experience use cases really improve what we're doing. A CZ there is for the building owner of the building operator. So it's really gonna be interesting to see what comes out over the next 6 12 24 months. So, John, one

spk_1:   25:49
of the

spk_2:   25:50
questions that I also had is when you think about, uh, internal, maybe external signs of this transition happening. What are you seeing that is really making you believe? Hey, this is this is going and we're right on the cusp of something really, really unique.

spk_0:   26:15
Well, I I think that, you know, with lighting being such a large part of building management, I believe that you get a sense of control and ownership that will not only drive costs down but will also be good at the same time. It'll create better experiences, and it will create better operations. So it is, if you will need the win win that you spoke up. I do think that it's still early days, early days in that the retrofits that are happening which you do return, um, energy savings and efficacy of the lighting itself for the space it that's being retrofitted I think those air still probably about mid way or getting to be about midway. And as more and more people take advantage of this, I think that we're starting to see the next wave. Oh operations as well as shopper Guest experience is starting to come into play with use cases that are affecting both the top and the bottom line. I do see a lot of activity, especially in the retail sector, as it relates to moving guests. We've all heard about some of the companies that have created cashier less in cashless experiences. We've heard of curbside, um, pick up and those arm or efficient, if you will, taking the friction out of people's experiences, it should go beyond that. It should go beyond that where if I'm in a store and I've purchased something all right filters for my H V A C system, and it's three months later. Why wouldn't I mind getting a reminder that says, you know it's probably gonna be time soon for you to pick these up, and since you're here today, you can pick these up or we can have these deliver those conveniences, become expectations and not always isn't going to be the lowest price winds or in a lot of ways, people making sacrifices. I think more and more people expect to be catered to in a way that suits them, and I think they'll beam or expectations for that in the beautiful thing with what we've done here, why is so attractive with a trice is that we could deliver on those experiences which will help the businesses. Wallace has anyone. It's visiting the space, but we do it in such a way that it really does help the building and facilities management team to manage those assets and make sure that they're using things in an objective, objective, ble way such that it gives their businesses all the opportunity that they want to meet their demands and the objectives they're striving.

spk_2:   29:21
That part makes sense. I know I like to be catered to, but Amber May Sam, high maintenance. I probably am. Yeah, but I But I do. You know, you're used to all these things in your personal life and all the things that you're doing at home. And you expect that as we move forward and on the technology side of things in the buildings. So, John, this may be a curveball question. Um, you know, but But it made me think of it through a conversation. So I think I agree with you, right? Like, people may not exactly understand the financial impact of the use cases yet it's not necessarily that the ah systems in the installation of making that initial investment is too expensive because it may not be, uh, but they haven't figured out how to quantify in some of the use cases. What is the financial benefit, right, depending on the vertical or who they are? Do you believe that's the case? Is by following that right?

spk_0:   30:23
That's certainly one of the if you, well, items that has to be discussed and thoroughly understood. I could say from the past few years of experience that there are businesses that make a fundamental decision to not on Lee exercise efficient facilities and energy management by upgrading toe L E. D's, but also they make a business decision to bring the lighting toe affect both the top and bottom line. And so the value equation is not just cost. It is on how things operate, which helps the bottom line, but it is also indicative of how you can improve the top. I made some comments earlier about the fact that you could remind somebody you could help make the experience of getting through a store or getting into our house and out off a health care facility can be more appealing or, if you will, simpler and created with less friction. Those will have business impacts, and I still think it's somewhat early days. But those values and penciling out that value equation from both of cost savings as well as a value added compared to what you're trying to d'oh the energy savings itself. It's probably a couple of years pay back when you really look at it. Just going from historical technology into the led higher come Milly for pressing, for example, so you could see a payback where you're gonna cut your energy expenses by at least probably 50% and you could doom or if you implement dimming and other characteristics in control through the Lighting network. How your lights are are operating. Take those savings right, which is, you know, a couple years pay bad and reinvest them if you reinvest those into what's happening now in my space. I think that's the That's the value equation that pencils out in really shows how again. Businesses have made a fundamental decision to integrate the lighting and the data as well as the geospatial, to answer the question. What's happening? My space? And should we be improving it in one area, enhancing it in another that drives corporations, businesses and owners owners, if you will take advantage of that future proof, if you will, that you've now put into yourself.

spk_2:   33:06
Yeah, I think I think you nailed it with that conversation because it's really a mind shift change, getting people out of just thinking it. Thinking about it is a simple or our ally and that, yeah, they will have a set savings on lighting. But if you're gonna do it, you know, like for me personally, why wouldn't you? Future proof a space standardize space to be able to take advantage of a lower cost later of being able to deliver all of these insights and an occupant experience? Because, at least from my vantage point, I'm not in it every day you are on that side, but it seems to me that there's if you choose to not do it right to not invest in that technology, there's gonna be an impact to brand an impact to customer customer experience. There's gonna be an impact too. Uh, really keeping the right tenants overall productivity and enjoyment of the people in your space or just the list goes on and on. So to me, it seems like an absolute no brainer to to move in that direction and really excited to see how that all unfolds.

spk_0:   34:15
Yeah, I would just add to that name. You're correct. It's better to know and to be knowledgeable as you're making decisions to change, upgrade your lighting toe what is available or how you do future proof things and what might be important for your business. Because if you do the change with led lighting, you know, expectations. The last you know, 10 years and beyond. Uh, it's not something that you want to d'oh two or three years out is to necessarily go back and have to retrofit again. Uh, some technical technology level or it's not so much like the hardware and software is gonna gonna be problematic. It's the labor to pry go back and do it scheduling labour and the disruption that would happen to business cell. We do encourage people whether they do or don't take advantage of all the opportunities that ATRIOs gives you in future proof environment. We encourage them to be knowledgeable so that they understand if they don't do, if you will, the implementation off the technologies that are available in future proof today they may, in fact, have Thio face that music a couple years down the road, which which we would hope would happen. But we want to make sure there now,

spk_1:   35:43
Harry, I

spk_2:   35:43
feel the pain on that. Having gone, I'm going through Ah ah, home remodel as we speak. And, man, I wish I could go back in time and that owner had the future proofed my house for a man.

spk_1:   36:00
Well, we're coming up towards the end of our time here, so we love to wrap up the show with words of advice, words of wisdom. Um, so many for this show. Specifically, what advice would you have for retailers looking to improve their operations in performance?

spk_0:   36:18
Thanks for that question, Amber. My advice would be is to be knowledgeable. Don't be afraid to reach out the Internet can be vast and in the wild and not everything that you read there is true but having if you will implemented Atria Sliding solutions and again over 500 million square feet Here in North America, we know that our solutions do scale we're happy and willing to discuss and offer. Um, not only just of course, the products and service is but also a little bit more under the covers of the education to make sure people are making decisions. And you make those decisions knowing full well what some of the impacts Maybe, of course, none of us have a crystal ball. But we, of course, want to make sure that our customers and people that are considering this aren't afraid to ask and understand and and invite us in to, uh, to tell you how we believe things work and what we could do to help your business.

spk_1:   37:28
Well, thank you again, John, for joining us today. For all of the listeners out there, don't forget to subscribe to the modern energy management podcast available wherever you get your podcasts. And, of course, at our website Modern Energy Management. Darko, If you like what you hear. Please leave us a review in the apple podcast app. If you have a great story to share and would like to come on as a guest, so free to eat. All s at communications at lucid d d dot com And that wraps up this episode of the modern energy management podcast. Thank you for tuning in. And thank you again, John, for joining us on this episode.

spk_0:   38:05
Sure. Thank you. Amber. Thank you for having me.

spk_2:   38:08
You got it. Thanks, John.